Front Row : BBC Radio 4 FM : August 12, 2016 07:15PM-07:45PM BST
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News, reviews and interviews from the worlds of art, literature, film and music.
🔗 The Robe gets to keep him.
🔗 That's still not my responsibility your social worker on you. Yes spot.
🔗 So you've seen families in situations like this before.
🔗 What advice would you give them.
🔗 It doesn't matter what advice I gave I know the law won't protect me.
🔗 Jeff that's not true.
🔗 If you just trust me it's because I said Helen Should we are you trying to make out
🔗 it was my fault know you I know you are trying to help.
🔗 And now I'm asking you to help again. We must want to.
🔗 Otherwise you would have let me in what I want is irrelevant.
🔗 Why because that's what Rob made you believe pleased yes.
🔗 This is Helen's whole life.
🔗 We're talking about don't let him take it away from her. I'm sorry.
🔗 I have my own life to think about I have and he has to come far.
🔗 Look you don't have to give me an answer. Now you have my on and it's no.
🔗 Now if you don't mind I'd like you to leave.
🔗 Am The Archers was written by Tim Stimson
🔗 and the agricultural advisor is GRAHAM HARVEY It was directed in our Birmingham
🔗 studios by going to Hughes and the editor is Sean O'Connor. This is B.B.C.
🔗 Radio four and now his front row with Samir Ahmed kick it.
🔗 years ago did punk start here
🔗 and does it
🔗 and here crimes like the poetry of pain.
🔗 It's really intelligent you.
🔗 Of saing It's an amazing way for people to put together the stories of their own
🔗 existence. Or maybe hear what I'm advocating is
🔗 that the old people are staffed by people who made twenty two
🔗 women. Whatever and they're all wearing swim well.
🔗 And we'll hear more about culture form a David Ho A later in the program today on
🔗 front row we're asking whether forty years of punk is just a nostalgia brands to
🔗 sell Britishness to tourists
🔗 or if it's got a living legacy in our culture today we'll hear from Don let's about
🔗 Hong Kong film
🔗 that it's intriguing tie up with Jamaican reggae from women who were say heads
🔗 and punk music and designs exactas and singer Hazel O'Connor
🔗 and if punk is a cultural state of mind.
🔗 We explore if modern crime music is its latest manifestation.
🔗 This year.
🔗 Art institutions across London have been marking the fortieth anniversary of the
🔗 Sex Pistols first single Anneke in the U.K.
🔗 Released in one thousand nine hundred eighty six this date is being read as the
🔗 symbolic beginning of British punk rock the Museum of London the British Fashion
🔗 Council the British Film Institute the British Library.
🔗 Among them have launched a whole year of events on shows called Punk London
🔗 but it is the very idea of commemoration at odds with the rebelliousness of punk
🔗 even a time establishment culture such as T.V.
🔗 and newspapers were quick to mock punk symbols dressing up in fake safety pins
🔗 and bin bags but film did capture that time remarkably well concerts
🔗 and documentary footage of the getting ages as much as feature films like Derek
🔗 Jarman Jubilee the musician filmmaker and D.J.
🔗 Don let's remember how punks used to come to his reggae shop in London he became
🔗 involved in the Rock Against Racism campaign
🔗 that some musicians such as the clash Tom Robinson and X.
🔗 Ray spex rally against the far right National. Movement.
🔗 He curated season of films about punk for the B.S.I.
🔗 To reflect its diversity including one of his own documentaries punk attitude which
🔗 his contributions from amongst others see Glenn Matlock
🔗 and polystyrene Nichols
🔗 facial climate at the time in the seventy's was crucial to the formation of punk
🔗 rock because punk rock was talking about the dull here
🔗 and winter of discontent the fabric of society that time was
🔗 when we first thought it was in our eyes was falling apart.
🔗 We had a three day wait you had rubbish strikes you know everywhere you went if you
🔗 want bad news to talk about burying people
🔗 and say in the movie because your driver gives one so I mean it was a it was an
🔗 orchestrated it was like all these elements of people not being happy with what was
🔗 going on.
🔗 people seem to look back on punk as if it was a very negative reaction to the kind
🔗 of the times the political times
🔗 and social times I guess I mean certainly in the to be a fight he curated you want
🔗 to emphasize the positive the creativity punk was never about nihilism and all
🔗 that stuff. It was about empowerment freedom
🔗 and individuality the whole negative thing really came through the media.
🔗 I mean they thought it was just about God being and Mohawks and safety pins
🔗 and I'm hoping that my film selection breaks down
🔗 that kind of narrow idea of what punks about.
🔗 I hope that it shows that it was all inclusive that it was empowering
🔗 that it was about individuality.
🔗 That's why it has the drawing the magnetism and the gravitas
🔗 that it has some of the usual suspects in or in there. But.
🔗 Westway to the world scene and Nancy.
🔗 And also the harder they come which to me is a representation of Jamaican punk
🔗 cinema is uniquely to sell the Jimmy Cliff film
🔗 and Jamaica's most famous film to show people
🔗 that the creation of reggae itself was Jamaica's punk rock moment I mean it
🔗 certainly takes all the punk bucks is I mean it was anti-establishment it certainly
🔗 had an attitude.
🔗 The people were not that technically skills
🔗 and I guess the connection between the two movements was the fact
🔗 that we were like minded rebels there was a particular Rock Against Racism concert
🔗 and people like X.
🔗 Ray specs and Tom Robinson performed that seems a very important moment
🔗 but take a given
🔗 that same much of people's imagery of punk now is Mohican Actually the odds with
🔗 the Caramba. Can you explain Rock Against Racism
🔗 and why it's important in the history of punk by the mid seventy's as a first
🔗 generation British born black I was definitely there.
🔗 I just felt alienated and pissed off but it seems
🔗 that by the mid seventy's society had managed to alienate a long white youth.
🔗 So that kind of drove us together.
🔗 And that it did drive away those people that wearing the Nazi swastikas
🔗 and things like that and certain people did make a stand
🔗 and say look if you're sporting that gay you can't be with us.
🔗 The Clash being won I think they told said look you know you can't hang with.
🔗 If you're wearing a swastika.
🔗 Even though you didn't really understand what it meant. Such was said.
🔗 And can you give me a sense of how those two styles reggae punk influenced each
🔗 It's obvious what punk got from reggae to I liked the anti-establishment vibe
🔗 but I like the musical report tars quality of the lyrics.
🔗 What reggae got out of it was exposure.
🔗 And that's all it needed done I gather
🔗 that you had bought Molly she had an argument about punk rock.
🔗 Yeah well what happened in this in one thousand nine hundred seventy was staying in
🔗 the King's Road after being shot in Jamaica it was kind of an exile
🔗 and I had to kind of defend my white make in the whole scene and tell him Bob
🔗 and you. RONE you know there has been other men like minded rebels
🔗 and even sentiment.
🔗 Don't sit before you now as a little baby don't let little baby dreadlocks to
🔗 oppose but Bob was saying and stand my ground was very difficult.
🔗 Funnily enough three months later.
🔗 Bob was moved to write the tune punky reggae party with
🔗 everyone always talks to me about
🔗 that as a kind of quintessential funky reggae moment but there was one before
🔗 that nine hundred seventy five I become friends with Patti Smith.
🔗 She was a big Ray fan and she put the mike in marker.
🔗 At the Hammersmith Odeon Luckily for me I wear my dark glasses so people can tell I
🔗 was terrified and I break into my heaviest Jamaicans language
🔗 and went into this kind of rock star actually from one paralyzed them on dolls
🔗 or worship Babylon to my feet
🔗 and patches on the floor writhing around making sounds and all kinds of stuff
🔗 and to me that was the birth of the punky reggae party.
🔗 What would you say is the legacy of punk I'm struck we allow it to end Berlin
🔗 and weaving in the stodgy museum about teenage is just as punctual picked up
🔗 and you know interrogated
🔗 and set free education dressing even just dressing as a punk was an important
🔗 statement of rebellion in some of these totalitarian regimes wasn't it.
🔗 Yeah it's a very very brave move it was never meant to be a marketing device which
🔗 is dangerously close to being currently you know the me in this whole celebration
🔗 thing. In a pub was about helping you to be all you could be.
🔗 And luckily outside of the whole Western idea of what it's now become there are
🔗 people around the world of picking up the ball or running with it.
🔗 So you think the word punk
🔗 and its meaning is being reclaimed because a lot of people felt
🔗 that within a few years. You know it was reduced to the Mohican on postcards
🔗 and safety pin trees of Queens NY You know and there's things are being sold
🔗 and have been sold as a brand question. Absolutely. A very disturbing to me.
🔗 Buzzcocks chains being used to sell McDonald's Now you know it's all up for sale.
🔗 I say let them have that four letter word. Let's think of a new one.
🔗 Don let's punk on film is at the bare fine till the end of August
🔗 and Don's documentary punk attitude will be shown on Wednesday.
🔗 And Sid
🔗 and Nancy Alex Cox's masterpiece about Sid Vicious starring Gary Oldman has been
🔗 restored and is released in cinemas now.
🔗 If punk was about outsiders not conforming female musicians are in the vanguard.
🔗 And that's a legacy that continues today C.D.C.
🔗 With a severe makeup
🔗 and as a name clothes the slits for girls including their Albertine who taught
🔗 themselves to play instruments X.-Ray Spex polystyrene whose voice has been
🔗 described as effervescent Li discordant punk allowed women to defy the music
🔗 industry's notions of beauty
🔗 and sex appeal women even became the main protagonist of movies about the music
🔗 industry like Hazel O'Connor in one thousand nine hundred breaking glass.
🔗 She told front row how she remembered it
🔗 when I first went for the auditions for breaking glass during
🔗 that only written four songs up until then
🔗 and one of them was called William which was a really sucky song
🔗 and I was not going to show them because I felt that
🔗 that really showed my vulnerability.
🔗 I wrote most of the songs in a week.
🔗 Songs like monsters in the sky
🔗 before punk.
🔗 If you were not pretty.
🔗 If you didn't have a good pair of legs or a good pair of boobs
🔗 or a sexy all of those things they really mattered in the industry
🔗 and after punk you didn't have to be like
🔗 that we were just rejoicing in our energy
🔗 and punk for May and power. Just for a little bit of time.
🔗 Hazel O'Connor is there then a uniquely female experience of being a punk.
🔗 I spoke to Jess Allen explained to the punk band Calvin Louise she's twenty two
🔗 and grew up in South America
🔗 and Dr Helen Reddington also known as Helen McCooey book from
🔗 when she played with the chefs.
🔗 She's the author of the last women of rock music female musicians of the punk era
🔗 and is working on a documentary she Punk's women in punk.
🔗 Helen took me back to what it was like for women like her in the hot summer of
🔗 seventy six all happened very very quickly.
🔗 It was like a door suddenly opened and lots and lots of people rushed through
🔗 and suddenly found themselves singing and playing in really really exciting
🔗 and stimulating environments on a completely equal footing with with men
🔗 which is really really unusual.
🔗 What was changing musically and then also kind of socially
🔗 that women felt welcome and punk.
🔗 Well in
🔗 that mid seventy's period so many of the women were if they were musicians if they
🔗 were playing instruments they were kind of a little bit floaty they had to cue
🔗 stick guitars and they had nice voices and they were very pretty and
🔗 that wasn't that sort of idea of being a rock person
🔗 that was easy question he was quite well known
🔗 and what it was was a kind of opportunity not just to kind of sing things
🔗 that you felt concerned you but also to make that noise as well. Yourself as well.
🔗 So you were really doing everything rather than being a mouthpiece for anybody else
🔗 it was quite a politically divided Britain wasn't it
🔗 and leading up to the late seventy's that whole sense of strikes and antagonism.
🔗 Well it was terribly depressing our generation left school
🔗 or was about to leave school to absolutely nothing in terms of jobs
🔗 and because our parents had left.
🔗 School to a situation where you could leave a job on a Friday
🔗 and get a new one on a Monday they really didn't understand people absolutely
🔗 despised the younger generation really really despised us
🔗 and it's really not surprising that we made ourselves into the sing
🔗 that was despised we made ourselves look like monsters
🔗 and we made ourselves sound like monsters as well.
🔗 Girls were brought up to be seen and not heard
🔗 and we made ourselves heard in the words of Polish starring an X. Ray spec.
🔗 Some people think about it
🔗 but not how he was by the way she dressed the way she sang which was clearly not
🔗 conventional pretty singing is half Somali half English guy with braces.
🔗 I mean she seemed to represent exactly what you're talking about she was my all
🔗 time favorite person the lyrics of her songs were the sorts of things
🔗 that people my age spoke about and she was an illustration of the ways
🔗 that people of my generation wanted our world today.
🔗 We wanted to embrace people from different cultures.
🔗 We wanted to embrace different ways of looking you know like wearing your braces on
🔗 your teeth and not being ashamed in that kind of thing and X.
🔗 Ray specs and Polly did all
🔗 that someone growing up on presumably in the one nine hundred ninety
🔗 S. I wonder what how you came to identify with punk
🔗 and how you see it you know I grew up in South America.
🔗 So the only place where we could be free like young people could do stuff
🔗 was either going to parties that were boring
🔗 or playing music because was the only safe place where with good feel
🔗 and punk music was about that about feeling that you can be free
🔗 and express yourself without any consequence no way because you're making your own
🔗 rules and the beginning when I started playing music. I had a lot of friends.
🔗 Male friends US are speaking to me about the slates about Durango this
🔗 and about most.
🔗 Van Slyke zero seven hole
🔗 and just telling me how these women have changed history for people like me for
🔗 younger generations in terms of the music
🔗 when you talk about bands like the slits of the raincoats then
🔗 when you listen to that music from forty years ago.
🔗 What is it about it that has gripped you.
🔗 Roll is wrong and right now everything has to be polished
🔗 and perfect order to learn
🔗 that doesn't mean being an artist be an artist just means expressing yourself
🔗 and being real. And that's what I felt listening to records in the sleeve.
🔗 want to ask about the concept of aggression and context
🔗 and it's twofold One is the idea of these women I remember seeing them at the time
🔗 you know with the shaved kind of the Mohicans and the piercings
🔗 and the bondage gear which looked incredibly aggressive
🔗 and yet also hearing stories from women had been banned about the violence in the
🔗 threats of violence they got a lot of the aggression was actually a bit of a kind
🔗 of keep off message.
🔗 I had a big problem
🔗 when I was actually writing doing my original research because I came across so
🔗 many rapes and so much sexual violence
🔗 and I went to one of my supervisors matter didn't know what to do about this
🔗 because I don't want to write a book about this.
🔗 I want to write a book about musicians and she said you're not writing about
🔗 that times you're writing about survivors.
🔗 It's interesting
🔗 that very valid perty made a statement quite recently at one of the big events
🔗 around the kind of commemorations we can call it that celebrations of punk
🔗 and about how women did seem to be airbrushed out of the history
🔗 and also you said the door shut.
🔗 Quite early on when I just wonder if you can explain a bit more about
🔗 that the music industry likes things that they can sell
🔗 and it's within the whole idea of on the case that you can't sell it. The music.
🔗 Industry is actually really alarmed by the most in our Kate band which was the Sex
🔗 Pistols. But there was such a lot of an icky and women getting up
🔗 and playing instruments it's not what we were supposed to do so.
🔗 The music industry.
🔗 Pretty soon signed people up and tell them to put that this happened for me.
🔗 Put your instrument down let's have a photograph of you without your instrument.
🔗 Everything was trying to suppress you just I want to hold looks to you now
🔗 when you're also fighting some of those bands in the ninety's
🔗 and the right girl bands like hole who themselves hark back to the seventy's has
🔗 anything really changed.
🔗 Well I think there's been a change because I've seen so many so many grade
🔗 frog bands say for example no between our urban punk and they they are amazing
🔗 and there are a lot of bands like that
🔗 and I feel like he's becoming normal in this scene maybe not as normal as
🔗 everyone wish I feel like people like Helen and you know birch
🔗 and the vulgar teen you have done somethin for the new generation
🔗 and it shows.
🔗 Jess Allen and Dr Helen Reddington
🔗 and the compilation album Lost the life which includes Hazel O'Connor's music is
🔗 out now. Beyond the music.
🔗 Arguably even more than the music the most enduring fact of the punk movement comes
🔗 from the iconography as any significant underground scene it's legacy only becomes
🔗 part of the collective consciousness to document Taishan and it says black
🔗 and white images of bands along with images of everyday punk sporting Mohicans
🔗 liberty Spike studded leather jackets and Doc Martens that have stayed with us.
🔗 Enabling those of us who weren't part of the scene to share in it.
🔗 So which underground scene is carrying on punks mantle today
🔗 and who is documenting it.
🔗 Well one contender for the inheritance comes from the states of East London front
🔗 row met the performers and the image makers from the world of grime music.
🔗 The Empire we have.
🔗 You know when the bottom line is a really called Vision
🔗 or to define you know a lot of people want to say that it's the U.K.
🔗 Don't to hip hop and I think that's incorrect it's a completely different thing.
🔗 Crimes like the poetry of pain.
🔗 It's really intelligent use of slang.
🔗 It's an amazing way for people to put together the stories of their own existence
🔗 and to be a Rhodes
🔗 and say I have shot one hundred seventy one gram MC I've come in now in twenty
🔗 sixteen to document a moment that is happening now
🔗 and maybe in forty years somebody will look back at my pictures and.
🔗 It will resonate that the beginning of two thousand and sixteen was
🔗 when the mainstream audience picked up on growing those people who could
🔗 misconstrue the idea of kind of these guys together every once in a herd.
🔗 Most of them a block you know you can't get away from
🔗 that race is a massive factor
🔗 and grime these guys all come from the same social standing.
🔗 They come from the same walk of life working hard for fifteen years
🔗 and they've always had a dedicated following they've always had people documenting
🔗 the same as Tim and Barry's. Simon Wheatley you and Spencer.
🔗 I think the comparison between growing
🔗 and punk is definitely an interesting one that by D.I.Y.
🔗 Generous that come from a youth culture of restlessness
🔗 and anti-establishment anti-government anti everything
🔗 that is telling you how to live your life and
🔗 that is exactly the same as punk you know
🔗 but I think forty years ago nobody had that i Phone.
🔗 Nobody had this instant upload viral way of creating imagery and video
🔗 and now in twenty sixteen that we do have.
🔗 There's a really interesting question as to what is iconic in an image is an iconic
🔗 image the one that somebody shot in the pitch.
🔗 On the i Phone that's now gone viral.
🔗 Or is it something where somebody has taken them aside shot them seriously in
🔗 inverted commas back in the day you had you had photographers like Nick Knight who
🔗 did a massive body of work on the scene as punk
🔗 and I think nowadays it's less conscious the way people shoot
🔗 and there are definitely photographers in the scene now you are amassing bodies of
🔗 work that have immediate and direct platforms.
🔗 So I'm just sitting at my computer now and I'm looking at an image
🔗 that Nick Knight shot.
🔗 It's an image of one of the punk is and he's got his the back of his head to us
🔗 and he's got both hands of cost around the back of his head.
🔗 You can see the tattoos on his hands
🔗 and instantly are a parallel with one of the images I shot of school.
🔗 Who is actually one of the more handsome grime MC's So the natural inclination is
🔗 to shoot his face but he was really into.
🔗 Working with me as a photographer and he sat down
🔗 and he started putting his hands over his face
🔗 and actually sometimes those are the most powerful images and I think
🔗 that that's something that Nick Knight actually was already successful in doing
🔗 and taking full of the random punk youth
🔗 and elevating them to to all high on George Mason people.
🔗 No more homeless so many people where the founders of trying to stop the project
🔗 would you call it. I've been listening to growing for ten to twelve years
🔗 and I've been involved with the music for five days.
🔗 I've been listening to Gram since I was around thirteen fourteen
🔗 and I used to want to be an MC and I stuff like that but then go to all that
🔗 and I've spoken places and said
🔗 that a move would you call it is to document from all authentic perspective
🔗 what's going on currently in LA people are actually glitz and glamour
🔗 and people saw the shows in the fun parts of it
🔗 but then I think the whole Not much part of it.
🔗 The people tried their best to capture that last week
🔗 and we're now off to make up early. Who's and see.
🔗 Just in the ground seems like you feel if you want to roll able to Freo we might
🔗 fall back on the road by typing it like you do with the real
🔗 when I tell we all her right now where to find a different light sources shall
🔗 films do always sleaziest Sarah going around looking for different places which has
🔗 good light and.
🔗 To today nature of the people that I photograph
🔗 and I something quite unpredictable about MCs don't always turn up on time so
🔗 entering the stay at the marina which is a cafe these friends the state where he
🔗 grew up when I was carefully grabbing sea from north London.
🔗 I being a spring ground property now for about a year.
🔗 I give you the hook for my latest video I go out quick. Marcus.
🔗 With her back with V.W..
🔗 My no way even a still told me don't play in the field everything might I put them
🔗 on please.
🔗 And I says whenever it's in a less car everything might I put it towards Before
🔗 don't get a softball in a walk over to mud.
🔗 I just love a decade of assembly blocking a pain car everything much.
🔗 I don't really know much about punk
🔗 but what do you know it's kind of got like the same Bell Yes And it's you do what
🔗 we want to know I mean like things are probably a bit random as well you know I'm
🔗 saying so.
🔗 Photography in grams definitely important because a lot of stuff I do spontaneous
🔗 and don't get documented sometimes you feel like it didn't happen.
🔗 Plus the outside as well. They like to see what's going on.
🔗 You know people might not get a chance to be around the scene in it
🔗 but you don't get opportunity then you can only see what's going on
🔗 and what we've got to. The book. This is grime is published on the September.
🔗 It crime is influenced by the music of punk who would call themselves a punk today.
🔗 Scotty is an artist he describes himself as fats
🔗 and working class with a portal for ladies clothes somewhere between Peter Kay
🔗 and Grayson Perry his work addresses what it is to be in a side or.
🔗 But the true race sexuality class age or gender.
🔗 He's currently working on a don't show about men
🔗 and their bodies which has been commissioned by the Southbank Center
🔗 and this November.
🔗 His new show putting words in your mouth which explores the effect
🔗 that she was in one clear identity debuts at the Brown house in London.
🔗 In the late one nine hundred seventy S.
🔗 Punk exploded society's expectations of gender class and power.
🔗 It was made for people who felt like outsiders by those who felt like outsiders
🔗 from Derry Londonderry undertone to encourage teenagers to kick back
🔗 to the Clash preempting civil unrest
🔗 and the subsequent write in London protests
🔗 four years later punk heroes a flock in butter on
🔗 the telly
🔗 and cheap misc our brands rip off the iconic Never Mind The Bollocks album cover to
🔗 sell that way today.
🔗 If you want to engage in messy aggressive political performance
🔗 that spits in the face of the normative you'll need to find your way on to the
🔗 alternative drop scene in recent years.
🔗 Drag from the bad acronym of dressed as a go has moved from this
🔗 to the
🔗 same way with
🔗 Drag has gone underground reinventing itself as queer drag.
🔗 This is the hen party female impersonator lip sinking to share stuff.
🔗 This is a tribe who are beyond the binary as of gender who use drag as a political
🔗 protest like the pace punk sweeps to a push to the sidelines named baton
🔗 attacks on a daily basis.
🔗 Just because of the way
🔗 that we look for the day where contouring camp blouses kitten heels grandma's
🔗 handbag or simply the switch.
🔗 punks our Get up isn't a choice.
🔗 In fact we often can't hide our hemisphere queerness.
🔗 So instead of turning it down. We make it louder.
🔗 We're drag isn't just to get a costume for the stage.
🔗 It's just skin and an homage to a pinch of glitter
🔗 and an inch of grease paint entertain you with one hand reflecting an ugly picture
🔗 of society with the other children don't talk about children take Prozac like
🔗 happy faces behind the gorgeous boys you are
🔗 and every sequin to the nines angular shapes like they've just stepped off the
🔗 Starship Enterprise.
🔗 If punk sartorial inspiration was bondage then queer drugs palate comes from the
🔗 dirty depths of a forgotten working men's club.
🔗 It's cheap shiny A likely to be held together with safety pins something we do have
🔗 in common with punk his coat performer David Hall explaining the queer drag agenda.
🔗 Imagine if you will.
🔗 Ladies and gentlemen a world where boys aren't stopping each other today.
🔗 That actually.
🔗 Admiring each other's acrylic nails queer drag is overly opinionated
🔗 and wonderfully obnoxious sound familiar.
🔗 Like punk fame
🔗 and wealth have no value our focus is something more destabilizing
🔗 and abandonment of everything you've ever hoped for.
🔗 Who knows in four years I might be flocking back to her and
🔗 that might be an indication attitudes have changed for now me
🔗 and my queer fat feminist black fair mates are part of an activist artform soaked
🔗 in revolution. Queer drag is the new punk does.
🔗 And there's nothing you can do about it.
🔗 Scotty next week on front row we're in Edinburgh scouting for new talent
🔗 but also chatting to Familia names including Philippa Gregory Allister McGowan and.